A serious debate

[Alfie Olek]

Do you think we could have a serious debate about the way forward without the Hcrx and Red and White’s music hall routine?

Firstly is the squad good enough irrespective of who is the manger i.e If we replaced martin would a new manager be able to motivate and play the same players and get better results?

Secondly and related to the above, our signing policy. I ventured the opinion on Pie and Bovril recently that we were back to the shot gun signing policy of the Billy Reid regime (sumsky,turner, lynch, kurakins etc.) and another Accies fan suggested our current signings were better. Your views

Thirdly if it isn’t the squad is Martin a manager or not?

I really don’t think he is going to quit and I don’t think Ronnie/les will sack him this season but it would be good to have a reasoned no name calling debate.

[redandwhite1874]

Well its hard to start a serious debate by slagging people off on the first line. I go to a lot of games and always put serious comments on here. The other guy is a wind up/abuse merchant who I exchange pleasantries with, but don't compare me to him thanks.

You have to say potentially the squad is good enough as the early season showed, however without Imrie and Kurtaj and with guys like Gills, Ali and Ziggy way off form we look short. That said, we don't have anything like a regular goal scorer and we have just brought in a guy who Martin says he doesn't expect to make an immediate impact and another guy has stayed with us after a totally average first half of the season. Also we have dumped our long established set up so perhaps no real surprise we continue to struggle and also we have started BRs habit of allowing one absentee to change the whole team around eg with the terrible Kurakins out we should have a reserve left back instead we switch a struggling RB to LB and put a struggling midfielder into RB where he has a proven track record of being ineffective.

As I put elsewhere after a year in charge it is fair to make an assessment of MC and over the last few months it has now become hard to have great faith in him turning it around. Our form over 3 months is shocking and the early form record only holds for so long. We have 3 hard games and then a relegation 6 pointer with Killie before the month is out - if we continue our form in those games then we are almost looking for snookers.

Trying to see the boards viewpoint; you could argue that with our resources it is no massive under performance to drop out of the league; however even that position has got to be balanced with some pragmatic look at how we are playing and how we are competing.

[H9crx]

"Well its hard to start a serious debate by slagging people off on the first line. I go to a lot of games and always put serious comments on here. The other guy is a wind up/abuse merchant who I exchange pleasantries with, but don't compare me to him thanks."

Fail

I don't go to games as I'm true to my word and have not been back to NDP since I gave up on canning! Game two as temp gaffer.

The squad is good enough, with a manager with experience who can bring in his own players and formation we can stay up.
This his history repeating its self, think back to the St Johnstone in Jan under Billy we all knew he should have been punted. But no we kept him and brought in six players from down south and played them all. Some of which had just made the trip up north.

[accies1874]

3 of the back 4 today went through q great run of clean sheets last season (5 in a row). You don't go from that to being torn apart by a part-time team due to ability. Gills has looked excellent under Canning at the start of this season and was great in the aforementioned spell. Crawford has lost interest and Docherty looks like a good player. Kurtaj and Imrie are dangerous too. The players are most definitely good enough.
The signing policy is terrible and hugely different to Neil's. Neil would sign a player and make them into established first team players with the odd exception. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Canning has no say in the transfers and the board are delighted that they can get on with their business without someone (Neil) in their way. I'm not saying they're happy we're awful (though I'm becoming more inclined to think so every match they spend with Canning) but they're happy they can do their own business. I mean our transfers have been terrible since Neil left:
Lucas - Good even if he has some howlers.
Kurakins - Not a footballer.
Turner - Awful.
Sumsky - Awful.
Kurtaj - Good but inconsistent.
Congo Chris - We'll wait and see.
Morris - Big donkey.
D'Acol - Not sure but today doesn't fill me with confidence.
Hasselbaink - Awful
Scotland - Did OK but re-signed after releasing him a couple of weeks before.
Chamorro - We'll never know.
I may be missing some but that's grim reading.
The manager isn't good enough and never should have been appointed after the 3 defeats as interim manager. When does that ever happen? We need to get someone else in as it can't be worse.

[H9crx]

3 of the back 4 today went through q great run of clean sheets last season (5 in a row). You don't go from that to being torn apart by a part-time team due to ability. Gills has looked excellent under Canning at the start of this season and was great in the aforementioned spell. Crawford has lost interest and Docherty looks like a good player. Kurtaj and Imrie are dangerous too. The players are most definitely good enough.
The signing policy is terrible and hugely different to Neil's. Neil would sign a player and make them into established first team players with the odd exception. There isn't a doubt in my mind that Canning has no say in the transfers and the board are delighted that they can get on with their business without someone (Neil) in their way. I'm not saying they're happy we're awful (though I'm becoming more inclined to think so every match they spend with Canning) but they're happy they can do their own business. I mean our transfers have been terrible since Neil left:
Lucas - Good even if he has some howlers.
Kurakins - Not a footballer.
Turner - Awful.
Sumsky - Awful.
Kurtaj - Good but inconsistent.
Congo Chris - We'll wait and see.
Morris - Big donkey.
D'Acol - Not sure but today doesn't fill me with confidence.
Hasselbaink - Awful
Scotland - Did OK but re-signed after releasing him a couple of weeks before.
Chamorro - We'll never know.
I may be missing some but that's grim reading.
The manager isn't good enough and never should have been appointed after the 3 defeats as interim manager. When does that ever happen? We need to get someone else in as it can't be worse.

Spot on when Alex was in charge Ronny disappeard into the back ground and Les took over. We go up Ronny appears again, Neil goes and we are back to the scatter gun random players from all over.

[redandwhite1874]

Are the comments regarding the club's alleged change in signing policy or procedure, and the nature of the relationship between managers and board, at all informed by actual knowledge; or just comments based on the usual fan observations or indeed speculations at what goes on behind the scenes?

[H9crx]

My own subjective opinion on the goings on! But I'm shure you disagree but that is ok.

But what we can agree on is that it's not working just now at the club and has not since this time last year!

[redandwhite1874]

My own subjective opinion on the goings on! But I'm shure you disagree but that is ok.

But what we can agree on is that it's not working just now at the club and has not since this time last year!

Well not sure speculation is the same as a subjective opinion but there you go; and also its not true that things haven't worked since last year; the end of last season and the start of this gave cause for optimism. However, results since October cannot be denied; and things right now are also hard to handle.

[rubenthedog]

There is obviously something wrong just now.

Crawfords gone off the boil, gillepsies back to giving he ball away again, kurakins isn't a defender, Mcgovern doesn't inspire confidence any more, God know what's happened with kurtaz- I've got a nasty feeling that he's played his last game for us, canning is anything but animated on the sidelines, what's happened to our pressing game, we were too laid back today,

Congo Chris looked eager when he came on, looks like he has something (time will tell)

Is the answer to get rid of canning?, reluctantly I'd say yes. If we don't do something quickly, we'll be down, possibly without the playoffs.

[accies1874]

It's speculation based on fact, redandwhite. The signing policy is completely different from Neil's tenure and a similar one to when Reid was in charge which gives the impression that a similar infrastructure is in place. Reid isn't here anymore so surely you have to look at who was in charge then and who's in charge now - Ronnie and Les.

[H9crx]

Alex was a revelation as care taker, but still did not want the job. He stated when moving that he had full power over players brought in and asked for the same at Norwich. Could he have agreed this term as he was in a position to after a good run as caretaker? Some thing canning did not secure?

Where the board have done fantastic things for the club. They make the same mistakes, last time in the premier Billy should have been fired around Jan. But no we signed a power of crap from all over the place and played them all at once.

I am disheartened as we all know that we will see history repeating its self again this year.

Can a BOD become stale in the same way a team/ gaffer can?

[redandwhite1874]

Well Boards can certainly under perform - and we have direct experience of what real board mismanagement looks like and even in a wider Scottish context there are plenty of examples of the bigger clubs below us.

The board may well be making the same mistakes; but the context is the thing that needs to be foremost. They are trying to keep a club with maybe 1200 regular fans in the top league. It also worth highlighting that Alex Neil was not just some kind of great fortune to befall the club - he is an absolute product of this club and its board and its ethos. Just over a decade from almost disappearing I truly feel that many have become totally unappreciative of what financial security is.

Many have thoughts on behind the scenes things we don't really know about ; does anybody have any idea how much our budget is compared to say Thistle and Kilmarnock - the latter of which is I hear are struggling to pay wages even after 're-structuring' debt.

[glasgow accie]

It doesn't matter a jot to me if other teams can or can't pay wages .......all I worry about is Accies.
And at the moment we are in free fall .......not good enough on ALL levels.
Relegation is A real possibility for us at the moment........and IMO , if we go down we could stay in the first division for a long time .

[accies1874]

We shouldn't keep referring to our past as a get-out for our shortcomings now. Too many folk content with underperforming in certain aspects as we used to be down the divisions. Life goes on. We're here now and we should implement that. I'm not saying slash the cash as we do have a small fan base. What I'm saying is that we need to use our money accordingly. A lot of our signings have been a waste of time and money recently and that money could be better spent with a better transfer policy.

[redandwhite1874]

Accies are in a competitive market and no matter if we like it or not; the spending ability (or borrowed ability) of other clubs in this league to spend more cash on players is absolutely relevant to the here and now.

Financial stability and sustainability is not only a reference to the past record of the board its an absolute reality to the here and now and its disappointing that people still take it for granted even when its pointed out that allegedly one of our main competitors cant afford the players they have.

We have always been in the market of trying to get quality on the cheap. We didn't have to beat off competitors when we signed guys like MAC, Jesus, Andreau, Imrie.

But lets deal with the here and now; the last time we went down we were assured by many that it would be for a long time.................?

[accies1874]

It would've certainly been a long time if we didn't get rid of our manager.

[Hooper]

As regards wages we will be 100% lowest payers in the league Infact we will be lower payers than a lot of championship clubs and also a few lower teams guaranteed as regard players coming in do we even have a scout ? So where do these players come from agents and word of mouth I assume but most aren't close to being good enough we have better players in the 20s team than a lot of the signings that come in

[glasgow accie]

Accies are in a competitive market and no matter if we like it or not; the spending ability (or borrowed ability) of other clubs in this league to spend more cash on players is absolutely relevant to the here and now.

Financial stability and sustainability is not only a reference to the past record of the board its an absolute reality to the here and now and its disappointing that people still take it for granted even when its pointed out that allegedly one of our main competitors cant afford the players they have.

We have always been in the market of trying to get quality on the cheap. We didn't have to beat off competitors when we signed guys like MAC, Jesus, Andreau, Imrie.

But lets deal with the here and now; the last time we went down we were assured by many that it would be for a long time.................?

Again , I , and I'm sure many other Accies fans are the same , could not give a shite for other teams finances.....
We only care about Accies !!
I don't know if spending money on new faces is the answer , because there seems to be something wrong at the mo ( what it is I don't know ......lack of confidence , poor tactics ...it could be any one of many things.... ) , but something needs to change !!
And , again , IMO , if we go down I don't think we would bounce straight back up straight away .
But it's all about opinions ..........

[glasgow accie]

Accies are in a competitive market and no matter if we like it or not; the spending ability (or borrowed ability) of other clubs in this league to spend more cash on players is absolutely relevant to the here and now.

Financial stability and sustainability is not only a reference to the past record of the board its an absolute reality to the here and now and its disappointing that people still take it for granted even when its pointed out that allegedly one of our main competitors cant afford the players they have.

We have always been in the market of trying to get quality on the cheap. We didn't have to beat off competitors when we signed guys like MAC, Jesus, Andreau, Imrie.

But lets deal with the here and now; the last time we went down we were assured by many that it would be for a long time.................?

Again , I , and I'm sure many other Accies fans are the same , could not give a shite for other teams finances.....
We only care about Accies !!
I don't know if spending money on new faces is the answer , because there seems to be something wrong at the mo ( what it is I don't know ......lack of confidence , poor tactics ...it could be any one of many things.... ) , but something needs to change !!
And , again , IMO , if we go down I don't think we would bounce straight back up straight away .
But it's all about opinions ..........

[Yummy Fur]

I don't go to games as I'm true to my word and have not been back to NDP since I gave up on canning! Game two as temp gaffer.

2 games seems a reasonable amount of time to give a new manager