Canning as manager...Success or not?

[Yummy Fur]

To answer your question (which you never manage to do), what I'm talking about is we didn't have to sell 22 at this point in time. We had no need financially or team wise to force our hand on that transaction. My opinion (and that's all it is), is the club acted more than hastily to get rid of our top player. We could have waited it out, maybe until the summer. Perhaps his market value would have less than £1m, who knows, but surely Accies are about more than just getting money in. Maybe a delay on selling 22 would have helped your beloved Canning in his present predicament.

Accies had no real choice but to sell Tony Andreu, not because of the million pounds on offer but because of Tony Andreu. The notion that Accies could of prevented a player playing in front of 30,000 people most weeks, challenge to play in the World's richest league and most importantly multiply his wage by a factor of at least 5 is sheer fantasy.

I suppose the follow on question is could Accies have spent some of the Andreu money on transfer fees and in the world of football manager the answer is yes but in the real world Accies trying to spend money in the transfer market would be like Brewster's millions - for example give me some names of players worth a fee who would improve what we've already got but would be happy to sign for Accies without our wage structure being ripped up?

Accies aren't in a new position in this regards, the season after we finished 7th the boat was pushed out, experienced players signed, fees paid (Casa), wage structures pushed to the max (Gary MacDonald, Mark Carrington etc...) and as a result we got relegated with games to spare as a disunited team. I feel lessons from history have been learned this time and the plan that has got us where we are will remain - regardless of what even the most sensible of posters write on this forum we aren't Dundee United!

That's not to say that Accies got it right in the transfer market in January, for the second season in a row we find ourselves without cover in either full back position and our striking options remain fragile to say the least but like Martin Canning the new additions need time and only then will we really know how much or if the January transfer window was really a disaster or a success.

[Yummy Fur]

Canning as manager...Success or not?

Of course the answer to the question is that it's still too early to judge. Any new manager would struggle against the background of replacing a truly exceptional manager and doing it with the loss of your 2 top scorers, however for me Canning's job was made even harder with the decision to keep on Frankie McAvoy for a month making it almost impossible for him to stamp his authority on the team from the start. I realise that 7 games without a win is a striking headline but I truly believe that the new management team can only start being judged from the Dundee game at Dens onward - 3 games, 2 draws which could easily have been wins and 1 complete shambles. Martin Canning's job immediate target must be to avoid a hammering on Sunday and then take enough points from the next 3 games to secure a top 6. To do so, formations and team selections are secondary the big challenge is to instill some confidence in a team devoid of it.

Fully accept what you say, but what would your opinion be if we try all of that and still don't get top 6.
Would it be, try harder Canning and take us into next season or what?

I'd be gutted after the start we've had if we don't make the top 6 and I don't doubt that the Accies board would be too but I really don't think that it will make much difference to Martin Canning's job prospects. Top 6 or bottom 6 I think that Canning will see the season out regardless, however the performances and results in those 5 post split games will determine what happens next season.

[glenthedog]

I think it's also accurate to say that some of the finance we pull in helps compensate the club from the lack of income caused by low gates. Clubs like ICT, both Saints and Motherwell have average gates that are double what we have.

They're odd teams to select as a comparison with our current state of financial good health. Motherwell were in administration not so long ago, and neither St Mirren nor Inverness are exactly big buyers or sellers, our lack of fan income is surely made up for by our success in the sales department. We've sold a number of players now for healthy profit, and are likely to benefit from future 'sell on' clauses. I think all a few of us are saying is that with a bit of decent scouting some sound financial outlay could have gone on the two or three experienced players who could have steadied the ship and greatly helped out young players in the coming months.

I think with all these 'discussions' going on we're in danger of straying from the original subject. I'll take my leave of the conversation, but it's been fun.

You don't seem to have read my post very well, as you've basically agreed with what I said but then take issue with it? As I mentioned, we use the income from sales to make up for small gates, and I also said that an experienced player was needed to help develop the youngsters - which is exactly in tune with your comments.... I used the Saints, Motherwell and ICT as a comparison for gate numbers, not as an example for how clubs are run. These clubs are from similar sized towns and have a similar history and stature as Accies, hence the comparison.

[Accies4ever]

I agree as far as Canning's prospects are concerned and what may cloud the board's thinking is they may not wish to be seen as wrong and will back their man to the hilt, come what may.
Where that leave's us for next season god only knows.

I can see it now......
Irrespective of how the season ends the board will come out with some statement in the close season stating that it's been a difficult end of season for Accies and that we must now all pull together as a team.
No doubt they'll try to persuade the fans that next season will be a clean slate and with new players arriving / existing players departing, etc , hew hope, a brighter future, new dawn, light at the end of the tunnel...you know that usual PR speak nonsense.
They'll say anything to defend their position.

It may work out, but it saddens me to say, but unless the board honesty and objectively appraise the club's situation in the close season, I believe that we'll continue to limp on under the existing management team until we perhaps reach a point of no return.

It would be refreshing if they do come out and say, look we've given the new management team a good crack of the whip, but it's not worked out. We're going to try something new. That would give me hope, depending upon what the "something new" is.

[Accies4ever]

Accies had no real choice but to sell Tony Andreu, not because of the million pounds on offer but because of Tony Andreu. The notion that Accies could of prevented a player playing in front of 30,000 people most weeks, challenge to play in the World's richest league and most importantly multiply his wage by a factor of at least 5 is sheer fantasy.

I suppose the follow on question is could Accies have spent some of the Andreu money on transfer fees and in the world of football manager the answer is yes but in the real world Accies trying to spend money in the transfer market would be like Brewster's millions - for example give me some names of players worth a fee who would improve what we've already got but would be happy to sign for Accies without our wage structure being ripped up?

Accies aren't in a new position in this regards, the season after we finished 7th the boat was pushed out, experienced players signed, fees paid (Casa), wage structures pushed to the max (Gary MacDonald, Mark Carrington etc...) and as a result we got relegated with games to spare as a disunited team. I feel lessons from history have been learned this time and the plan that has got us where we are will remain - regardless of what even the most sensible of posters write on this forum we aren't Dundee United!

That's not to say that Accies got it right in the transfer market in January, for the second season in a row we find ourselves without cover in either full back position and our striking options remain fragile to say the least but like Martin Canning the new additions need time and only then will we really know how much or if the January transfer window was really a disaster or a success.

It's an interesting point regarding Tony, but we may never know if it's actually true.
What we know for certain is that 22 had a season and a half left on his contract.
What we don't know is did he have a buy out clause in his contract. If he did you can bet Alex knew about it.
The other factor was what Andreu's thoughts on the matter to Accies were. I don't believe he would have said this, but if he did, he wouldn't have been the first player to state that if you don't let me go, I won't play to my potential (or words to that effect).
Even 22 playing to half potential would have been better than some lately that pull on the hoops.

I believe Tony knew that a bid was coming, as I felt he was never as effective after Alex left. I put that down, at the time, to Alex leaving, as the whole team seemed upset after his departure, but in hindsight it was likely due to conversations he had with Alex (as Norwich boss). If that's true, then Accies must surely must have known, or at least suspected. Afterall, all Accies fans suspected.

The real question then being, why did we not get in decent replacements, and give Canning the best chance to succeed. I understand your Brewster's Millions argument, but surely we're not that lacking in ideas that our only option was unheard of foreign players.

The whole think smacks of the opposite of joined up thinking.
Maybe the clubs thinking is that we're safe from relegation, let's ride it out until the close season.
Either way, it's not pretty viewing of late.

[redandwhite1874]

Oh well it was nice whilst it lasted; but like a lot of forums you eventually find people who confuse the basic right to express an opinion as being the same as that opinion then being above any criticism or critical comment. The invention of insults is laughable. The invention that I am somehow suggesting 'inside information' is also wholly imagined.

Accies4ever I assumed you were being critical of the Andreu sale - you have pushed back against my interpretation and to be honest from your following posts I am no longer sure what your position is; we should have kept him?

The core ethos is to come and succeed and go if the money is right hence Tony goes and Ziggy stays. The ethos is not come and succeed and if it suits us we will hold onto every inch of your contract. The ethos is part of why a clearly talented player such as Tony signed a 2 year deal in the first place - he trusted we wouldn't stand in his way if a good offer came in that suited everybody. I defy anyone to suggest that over £1m is not in 'unrefuseable' territory.

That the club's strategy to replace, the terrible timing etc and that it came on the back of other upheaval was no excuse to block a life changing move for Tony; a block which would have undermined every single commitment made to each player that we wouldn't stand in their way - a commitment and ethos which has served us well. Hence my reference re the whole ethos.

Not only is Canning being 'supported'; whilst criteria for his exit are being actively discussed and 'failure' being banded about; we now have discussion about how the board might not face up to things and might not analyse things properly in taking the decision to sack him. I see that as contradictory.

[Gaspode]

This is a question for the end of the season, not now. Judging a manager after 7 games is crazy regardless of what club it is or what league they are in, unheard of even.

[Accies4ever]

I opened this thread to see what other posters thought of Canning and to gauge what fellow Accies fans felt of what level the new management team had to achieve to be thought as a success, or at least satisfactory.

We are all aware of what happened over the last few months and I'm sure we have all taken into account the pros and cons of that.

As for most threads it does drift somewhat off the original premise, but that's fine.
It would be pretty boring if everyone agreed about every point, and I for one would lose interest if everyone just said I agree what what you have said.

We can agree to disagree, that's fine with me.

If someone posts a point of view, I maybe put a counter point, but when people start stating that "you are contradicting yourself, or being patronising to other posters, or assuming they can somehow read others minds, then that's when it starts to move away from the ebb and flow of point and counter point to a point where it's trading insults.

I don't want it to deteriorate into that.

Let's keep it civil and state your point and I'll state mine. I for one do not wish to track back through every single post that people make in order to find minute contradictions in what people say, as we can all state things from time to time that may be less than totally consistent.

After all we're only voicing our opinions at that point in time. Those opinions can change depending upon circumstances.

I never for once stated anyone had inside information, I asked if people did and to share it.
Afterall that would be interesting to hear.
If you don't have privy information, that's fine. I don't.

I've not got some vendetta against Martin Canning, as I would be saddened for a great servant of the club to leave, I'm more than content to give him until the close season to judge him. What I don't want to happen is to give him a "blank cheque" without any boundaries on achievement.
I honestly don't think that no matter what I believe, it will influence the board's thinking one way or another.

From my own point of view, do I believe Canning (and Swailes) are the correct appointment. Frankly no, but time will tell.

Do I believe the club acted correctly. I would never doubt anybody's sincerity and I believe the the board do act in the best interest....absolutely.

Do I believe that the club's current ethos is good. No, I believe it's fantastic.

Do I support the club. I've been supporting Accies for nearly 40 years now (since primary school), through thick and thin, but that doesn't mean you have to agree with every single decision it makes. We're not robots afterall.

Do I think that what happened over the last few months, could have been handled better. Yes, I think what happened was too much turmoil too soon. Maybe we couldn't have stopped Alex or Tony from leaving or MAC taking the "hump", but I don't think how the club prepared and planned for those events were the best. Maybe their plan is simply to ride out the storm and re-group in the summer, but some sort of message from the board laying out their plan would perhaps reassure the fans. In the absence of that we can but speculate.

I'm desperate for this season to be looked back upon as a great success and not to somehow fizzle out like a damp squib, but my primary thoughts are ensuring our SPL survival for next season and that we have the correct people, players and structure in place to achieve that.

Surely that's not too controversial, that we can all agree on that point. Or is it?

[Willie Wastle]

Accies4ever, the title of this thread is misplaced. We don't yet have though evidence to judge whether Canning will be a success as a manager - and I use the future tense deliberately. Your first line was that it is probably too soon to tell, and you're right, it is too soon. He's had just 7 games in charge (6 when you started the thread). All we can speculate on at this stage is whether he will go on to be a successful manager.

You also started by questioning the wisdom of the appointment. I don't. It's the same philosophy that saw us appoint Neil, probably too soon for him, but look how well that worked out. Now, we can easily contrast the results in Neil's first few games in charge of Accies with Canning's, but we should also bear in mind the calibre of the opposition. The early signs are not promising, but I'd say no more than that.

Football is a results business, we've had poor results since Canning took over, and many of our younger fans may never have seen us go so long without a win. So I understand some of the frustration. But clearly Canning will get at least till the end of the season no matter what.

At the start of the season, most of us would have settled happily for finishing 10th. A fantastic run to January has seen us well placed - even now - for a top six finish, and of course missing out on that would be hugely disappointing. But it wouldn't be failure: our highest ever post-war finish is seventh, under Billy Reid.

One factor possibly missed by those contemplating the possibility of Canning being sacked as manager is that his position as a player would be virtually untenable. And that would be a significant loss of experience. We can't really afford to allow that to happen.

[Accies4ever]

Accies4ever, the title of this thread is misplaced. We don't yet have though evidence to judge whether Canning will be a success as a manager - and I use the future tense deliberately. Your first line was that it is probably too soon to tell, and you're right, it is too soon. He's had just 7 games in charge (6 when you started the thread). All we can speculate on at this stage is whether he will go on to be a successful manager.

You also started by questioning the wisdom of the appointment. I don't. It's the same philosophy that saw us appoint Neil, probably too soon for him, but look how well that worked out. Now, we can easily contrast the results in Neil's first few games in charge of Accies with Canning's, but we should also bear in mind the calibre of the opposition. The early signs are not promising, but I'd say no more than that.

Football is a results business, we've had poor results since Canning took over, and many of our younger fans may never have seen us go so long without a win. So I understand some of the frustration. But clearly Canning will get at least till the end of the season no matter what.

At the start of the season, most of us would have settled happily for finishing 10th. A fantastic run to January has seen us well placed - even now - for a top six finish, and of course missing out on that would be hugely disappointing. But it wouldn't be failure: our highest ever post-war finish is seventh, under Billy Reid.

One factor possibly missed by those contemplating the possibility of Canning being sacked as manager is that his position as a player would be virtually untenable. And that would be a significant loss of experience. We can't really afford to allow that to happen.

I contemplated an alternative title, but I thought "Canning as manager...it's too soon to judge" was boring and would have killed off the thread stone dead.

I've said many times (just look back) that I understand that if Canning is let go as manager, we lose him as player also, but it was him that accepted the new role, with the consequences that go with that.

[southoftheborder]

One factor possibly missed by those contemplating the possibility of Canning being sacked as manager is that his position as a player would be virtually untenable. And that would be a significant loss of experience. We can't really afford to allow that to happen.

I'm not sure his presence as a player is necessarily a good thing at the moment. Maybe he needs a few games watching from the sidelines to get a better perspective on things.

Look at the number of games Alex didnt play!

[H9crx]

All we have to do is look to Kilmarnock! We don't hear them talking about a hard fixture list!

They have singed players to replace who they have lost and are scoring goals! canning et al is are a complete flop and we will not be in the top six this time next week.

People looking to games in a weeks time, will be to little to late, I don't think we will beat ross county, St Johnstone or St Mideast.

[redandwhite1874]

I don't believe saying positions are contradictory is abuse; not by any stretch of the imagination. Patronising is an entirely subjective assessment - its an opinion. Like the assessment of abuse I don't accept the assessment of patronising; buts its always tempting to attach negative labels to views that don't match yours.

Accies4ever you specifically asked me if I had inside info to share it. I never made any hint that I did and I would say you were suggesting that i did.

Your 'mind reading' comment I guess (?) is made at my interpretation of your 'cashing in' term which I took to be a negative take on things. The paragraph before this comment was about the club putting cash before the team. You said proof of this was 'cashing in' on Tony and then you don't accept my view that you were being critical of the club.

I have never questioned anyone's support of the club; but I do question if someone can support Canning having already decided the appointment was a mistake, starting to discuss the conditions under which he will be sacked and starting to discuss how the club might bottle that decision. Support for me is not just the absence of calling for someone to be sacked now.
Support for me is giving them the space and time to see through hard times; that support might end up being misplaced I grant you. But what is the alternative? Cold hearted/headed assessment of results and performance- well that is absolutely fine as well but not if it is dressed up as support.

What did you mean by cashing in? Should the club have knocked back Norwich in your opinion?

[YeOldeHamiltonian]

Not getting in the top six when we were challenging at the top of the League first week in January is failure WillieWastie.Dundee catching Accies after being 17 points ahead is failure.Two points and terrible performances last 7 games is failure.

Worst 3 teams in the League currently are Accies,St.Mirren and Motherwell that is failure.

Those scunnerred by recent events have watched terrible Accies teams in terrible grounds.To throw away a chance of success and start the descent to mediocrity is failure.We have watched through the crap years-many of us no desire to return to those years of failure.

[redandwhite1874]

Not getting in the top six when we were challenging at the top of the League first week in January is failure WillieWastie.Dundee catching Accies after being 17 points ahead is failure.Two points and terrible performances last 7 games is failure.

Worst 3 teams in the League currently are Accies,St.Mirren and Motherwell that is failure.

Those scunnerred by recent events have watched terrible Accies teams in terrible grounds.To throw away a chance of success and start the descent to mediocrity is failure.We have watched through the crap years-many of us no desire to return to those years of failure.

None of us have any desire in that respect.

[Accies4ever]

I don't believe saying positions are contradictory is abuse; not by any stretch of the imagination. Patronising is an entirely subjective assessment - its an opinion. Like the assessment of abuse I don't accept the assessment of patronising; buts its always tempting to attach negative abels to views that don't match yours.

Accies4ever you specifically asked me if I had inside info to share it. I never made any hint that I did and I would say you were suggesting that i did.

Your 'mind reading' comment I guess (?) is made at my interpretation of your 'cashing in' term which I took to be a negative take on things. The paragraph before this comment was about the club putting cash before the team. You said proof of this was 'cashing in' on Tony and then you don't accept my view that you were being critical of the club.

I have never questioned anyone's support of the club; but I do question if someone can support Canning having already decided the appointment was a mistake, starting to discuss the conditions under which he will be sacked and starting to discuss how the club might bottle that decision. Support for me is not just the absence of calling for someone to be sacked now.
Support for me is giving them the space and time to see through hard times; that support might end up being misplaced I grant you. But what is the alternative? Cold hearted/headed assessment of results and performance- well that is absolutely fine as well but not if it is dressed up as support.

What did you mean by cashing in? Should the club have knocked back Norwich in your opinion?

I asked if you had inside information. Your answer is No. Question answered.
No suggestion made, is was purely a question.
The point I was making is that without said knowledge, you are speculating, same as the rest of us.

Cashing in. Already answered it. Read what I've said.

Should the club have knocked back Norwich in your opinion?
It was a opinion for the club, certainly. If you read what I've said already, none of us truly know what happened, it might not have been an option, if say Tony has a buy out clause. If he had a buy out clause Alex would certainly have known about it.

Mind reading thing was your assumption that just because I dare question a board's decision that I was against the club's ethos.

You seem to miss the basic point that you can actually be supportive of something, but be critical of individual points also. That's why I said everything's black or white with you. Life's dynamic. Example is my son's training in a boys football club. I'm 100% supportive of him, but I can also be critical of him, if he's not doing something right, and try to guide him how to make things better. It's how people improve.
By the way, that's standard managerial techniques.

Also I never once called for Canning to be sacked now. I don't think he is the correct appointment, but I still support him as present Accies manager. I want him to turn things round and improve performances/results. What I have posed is a benchmark where achievement is required.

I'm supportive of the team and the club primarily, individuals secondary.
It's the same idea as "no one bigger than the club"

Cold hearted/headed assessment of results and performance. I've already answered your question of what criterion I would apply a while ago, so why are you bringing this up again. Anyway, at some point results and performance have to come into play unless you're suggesting once a manager is in place, he can never get the sack. Why use the term cold hearted/headed, as if it's just a matter of crunching numbers. Again you miss the point, which you continually do.

Support in terms of a football board, manager or player does not mean blind allegiance to them. Don't understand why you don't get that.
Would you say that Rangers fans who are protesting against the board are not being supportive of the club. Far from it, they love their club so much that they can't stand what's happening to it, and fear for its existence.
It's an extreme example, granted, but I'm trying show you, you can be critical and support the overall club at the same time.

You said before everyone has a breaking point. Hypothetically if the team continue to perform badly and lose, into next season, there will be a point where even you would call for change. Does that mean you're then not being supportive.
If you say there wouldn't be a point, then you don't have the club's best interest at heart.

You say above that you wouldn't ever question a person's support, then at the end of that same paragraph imply I'm actually guising my opinions up as support (ie not being supportive). Contradiction!

I trust I have answered your questions and stop asking me the same question time and time again.

Seeing that you like asking me questions, in what set of circumstances would you call for a managerial or board change at Accies?

[Accies4ever]

Simple poll guys.
All I'm looking for is a YES / NO / UNSURE answer.

Given all that's happened at the club over the last month or so, but also that we had 39pts out of 20 games and were sitting in 3rd position when Alex left:

1....If Accies fail to achieve a top 6 finish this season, should the club look to change management in the close season.

My answer is YES.

2....If Accies do get a top 6 and it looks like present management are turning things around, should the present management be allowed to continue to lead us into the new season.

My answer is YES.

Can I please have your responses.

[redandwhite1874]

Simply, if I reach a breaking point and think someone should go; I would then say that I am no longer supportive of them. Hopeful for them but how can you support what you have decided is a mistake.

I did not say that I would never question anyone's support. I said that I have never questioned anyone's support of the club -

I have been clear we had no choice to accept Norwich's offer as our commitment to players is they can go if the deal is right for the club; if we had knocked back tony that commitment would have been seen as worthless across current and future players.

Re when i would call for a change at Accies - i have already said that football cannot be about you need to achieve x and y or you are gone. We are never going to find consensus here; i cannot fathom judging a manager after 7 games and i cannot see why or how Martin won't be in charge come August, whilst you are anticipating problems in both Martin's and the boards performance and decision making - in a supportive way. But i am 'biased' perhaps as i think he will keep us in the top six or if not then match our 2010 final position.

[Accies4ever]

Simply, if I reach a breaking point and think someone should go; I would then say that I am no longer supportive of them. Hopeful for them but how can you support what you have decided is a mistake.

I did not say that I would never question anyone's support. I said that I have never questioned anyone's support of the club -

I have been clear we had no choice to accept Norwich's offer as our commitment to players is they can go if the deal is right for the club; if we had knocked back tony that commitment would have been seen as worthless across current and future players.

Re when i would call for a change at Accies - i have already said that football cannot be about you need to achieve x and y or you are gone. We are never going to find consensus here; i cannot fathom judging a manager after 7 games and i cannot see why or how Martin won't be in charge come August, whilst you are anticipating problems in both Martin's and the boards performance and decision making - in a supportive way. But i am 'biased' perhaps as i think he will keep us in the top six or if not then match our 2010 final position.

Can you never actually answer a question?
Are you secretly a board member or a staff member at Accies?

[redandwhite1874]

Simple poll guys.
All I'm looking for is a YES / NO / UNSURE answer.

Given all that's happened at the club over the last month or so, but also that we had 39pts out of 20 games and were sitting in 3rd position when Alex left:

1....If Accies fail to achieve a top 6 finish this season, should the club look to change management in the close season.

My answer is YES.

2....If Accies do get a top 6 and it looks like present management are turning things around, should the present management be allowed to continue to lead us into the new season.

My answer is YES.

Can I please have your responses.

What has made you change from your stated position that MC should be judged at the end of the season?

My answers are No and Yes; whilst recognising that there are more than 2 outcomes to our season.

Why not add:

3)If he stays until august and then loses his first 5 games should he go then ? etc etc.