Canning as manager...Success or not?

[Alfie Olek]

Hopefully the board, if there comes a time when a decision does have to be made, looks to our future as an established top-flight team with realistic goals of achieving top 6 and Europe rather than a wee team whose supporters should just be happy they've got a team to watch every week.

Theron lies the nub because because I don’t think Ronnie and Les despite their protestations, are that bothered about being top 6 etc. Ronnie was on record as saying he was not bothered about the Premier League although at fans forums since we have been assured no that is not the case the Premiership is where we want to be. Les was the public face of the “Championship’ clubs wanting the play off set up making it easier for clubs to go up and down between the leagues but again the Board says we don’t want to be a yo yo club but thats what we are with our ‘ethos’. We develop youth through our system until we have a team challenging for and getting promotion. These players go in the shop window and are sold to reinvest in the youth system. The team weakens over time and gets relegated. We bring in the next generation and so it goes on. Ronnie and les have always been about developing youth going back tot heir amateur/junior days and I believe get great satisfaction out of seeing players matter into first team players and in some cases go off to much bigger things. Its difficult to fault this and what they have achieved but it makes it very difficult to break that mould achieve top six and still have youth development as our ethos yet Dundee United do it.

[porcupine]

Just remember, all who read this, that going to Celtic Park and expecting a positive result, is NOT the game on which to continue the "can-he/can't he" deliberations. Yes, we DID steal 3 points last time there, but be fair to Martin and the team, it's the next ones that will really tell.

Management, as some of us know from past lives, needs lots of different skills to blend a workforce into a cohesive unit, all striving for the same goals. Our basic unit is already there, and we need to see that our new manager has the ability to step out of the player role, and both see, and implement the tactics required to get the best possible result from his team.

I would have suggested Canzo take a seat in the stand, after the Celtic game, to see what's happening on the pitch, and with Devlin slotting into his role, but with Jesus's early Easter inactivity, that option might not be the best available.

[Alfie Olek]

Just remember, all who read this, that going to Celtic Park and expecting a positive result, is NOT the game on which to continue the "can-he/can't he" deliberations.

Agreed. It was always going to be the next run of games that make or break our season in terms of top six. Its unfortunate that after apparently steadying the ship against Dundee/ Killie, Martin had fixtures against Dons/Celtic. Another defeat like Aberdeen can do untold damage. I think there is nothing to lose if he does sit this out and substitutes Lucas and Devlinin defence for himself and Jesus.

[H9crx]

Devlin started at the old Rangers as a kid, let's give all new faces a start and see how they do!

[redandwhite1874]

Talk of 'failure', 'yes man', 'easy and/or cheap options', not 'bothered', questioning the judgement of the board both in terms of the most recent appointments and the whole approach of the club. Talking about how we are not a 'wee' club whilst apparently ignoring our home crowds, 'blind faith', 'Gattuso ???? ect etc.

It all leaves me with a single thought that I think is lacking (no chance there!)............ perspective.

[Thethirdproclaimer]

Plenty perspective from my point of view, but thanks for the advice and patronising comment. Ignoring our home crowds? Wasn't too long ago we were lambasting Alan Preston for saying we didn't deserve to be in the top division due to our home crowds. We were quick to dismiss that notion in the summer, now we should consider them as a barometer for our ambition? Nonsense. The only way teams grow in stature (and following) is by winning games and improving year on year, once again I'd point you towards Inverness as a model for a team looking to grow in the Premiership. Absolutely no reason why it can't happen at Accies.

[Accies4ever]

Not asking for unrealistic goals within the club, and I for one don't see why we shouldn't set our aim of staying in the SPL and growing into an established SPL club.
If clubs like Inverness, St Mirren, St Johnstone and Partick can do it, so can we.

We have done very well of late, but that doesn't mean that every decision that the board makes is a correct one.
I truly believe that the decisions of late have been made more in the quest to get as much money into the club (no matter how well intentioned) over the general health of the team.

Examples of this was cashing in on 22, when really there wasn't a need to get rid of him now. He had a season plus left on his contract. The lack of activity during the window when we had a chance to strengthen. The Canning appointment (for me) is also indicative of this. Losing Alex was a big loss, but to somehow think that replacing him with an inexperienced management team in Scotland's top tier was the answer, was naive to say the least.

Back to the subject at hand, one of the reasons why I set the top 6 as a watermark, is not so much for this season, but more an indicator for next.
If the new set up can't gather a few points to achieve a top 6 finish, when there's relatively less pressure on them, how are they going to be next season, when it looks like we'll be amongst the bottom 6 and striving to keep away from relegation.
If they can't manage the former, they'll struggle with the latter.

[Alfie Olek]

Whatever ur views one of the best threads in ages. Who said the forum past its best

[redandwhite1874]

Not asking for unrealistic goals within the club, and I for one don't see why we shouldn't set our aim of staying in the SPL and growing into an established SPL club.
If clubs like Inverness, St Mirren, St Johnstone and Partick can do it, so can we.

We have done very well of late, but that doesn't mean that every decision that the board makes is a correct one.
I truly believe that the decisions of late have been made more in the quest to get as much money into the club (no matter how well intentioned) over the general health of the team.

Examples of this was cashing in on 22, when really there wasn't a need to get rid of him now. He had a season plus left on his contract. The lack of activity during the window when we had a chance to strengthen. The Canning appointment (for me) is also indicative of this. Losing Alex was a big loss, but to somehow think that replacing him with an inexperienced management team in Scotland's top tier was the answer, was naive to say the least.

Back to the subject at hand, one of the reasons why I set the top 6 as a watermark, is not so much for this season, but more an indicator for next.
If the new set up can't gather a few points to achieve a top 6 finish, when there's relatively less pressure on them, how are they going to be next season, when it looks like we'll be amongst the bottom 6 and striving to keep away from relegation.
If they can't manage the former, they'll struggle with the latter.

I assume the term 'cashing in' in getting over £1m for player we got for free and who did brilliant things for us is meant to be a criticism of the club. Not sure if you are suggesting that any of the clubs you would wish to emulate would not have sold in those outrageously profitable circumstances (for both parties)? ICT for example?

But you can look at it and be critical; but as long as you realise that you are being critical of the whole ethos of the club; the approach which has been really successful in general and recently in particular the 'come here, be successful and move on if the price is right' ethos has worked. If you want to ditch it what do you want to replace it with?

[Alfie Olek]

But you can look at it and be critical; but as long as you realise that you are being critical of the whole ethos of the club; the approach which has been really successful in general and recently in particular the 'come here, be successful and move on if the price is right' ethos has worked. If you want to ditch it what do you want to replace it with?

Personally I don’t want to ditch it. It has been incredibly successful but I want to see flexibility. I want us to be able to buy one or two individuals with ability and not at the end of their careers to strengthen the squad with a view to achieving a higher finish and elimination the threat of being a yo yo club. I think that is perfectly doable and sustainable in our current financial state. In the summer it is likely we may see others go e.g. Ziggy and Ali. What are we going to do with that money? Build the flats we have planning permission for and call it youth development or bring in the next generation alongside a couple of good players with plenty of mileage left on the clock ?

[redandwhite1874]

But you can look at it and be critical; but as long as you realise that you are being critical of the whole ethos of the club; the approach which has been really successful in general and recently in particular the 'come here, be successful and move on if the price is right' ethos has worked. If you want to ditch it what do you want to replace it with?

Personally I don’t want to ditch it. It has been incredibly successful but I want to see flexibility. I want us to be able to buy one or two individuals with ability and not at the end of their careers to strengthen the squad with a view to achieving a higher finish and elimination the threat of being a yo yo club. I think that is perfectly doable and sustainable in our current financial state. In the summer it is likely we may see others go e.g. Ziggy and Ali. What are we going to do with that money? Build the flats we have planning permission for and call it youth development or bring in the next generation alongside a couple of good players with plenty of mileage left on the clock ?

I take your point and we may well find ourselves there. But that is different from knocking back £1m as is being seriously suggested or wanting to spend £100k on someone effectively worth zero 4 months later.

Don't forget there have been exceptions already; bringing in Scotland in the first division involved spending a few bob in wages - not the eye catching transfer fee stuff but still an outlay of cash.

[Alfie Olek]

But that is different from knocking back £1m

No issue with selling Andreu for £1 million. You can’t knock an offer back like that. But we seemed as a club not to be prepared for this and have options ready which I find surprising But then we will never know what would have happened if alex had still been there

[Accies4ever]

Not asking for unrealistic goals within the club, and I for one don't see why we shouldn't set our aim of staying in the SPL and growing into an established SPL club.
If clubs like Inverness, St Mirren, St Johnstone and Partick can do it, so can we.

We have done very well of late, but that doesn't mean that every decision that the board makes is a correct one.
I truly believe that the decisions of late have been made more in the quest to get as much money into the club (no matter how well intentioned) over the general health of the team.

Examples of this was cashing in on 22, when really there wasn't a need to get rid of him now. He had a season plus left on his contract. The lack of activity during the window when we had a chance to strengthen. The Canning appointment (for me) is also indicative of this. Losing Alex was a big loss, but to somehow think that replacing him with an inexperienced management team in Scotland's top tier was the answer, was naive to say the least.

Back to the subject at hand, one of the reasons why I set the top 6 as a watermark, is not so much for this season, but more an indicator for next.
If the new set up can't gather a few points to achieve a top 6 finish, when there's relatively less pressure on them, how are they going to be next season, when it looks like we'll be amongst the bottom 6 and striving to keep away from relegation.
If they can't manage the former, they'll struggle with the latter.

I assume the term 'cashing in' in getting over £1m for player we got for free and who did brilliant things for us is meant to be a criticism of the club. Not sure if you are suggesting that any of the clubs you would wish to emulate would not have sold in those outrageously profitable circumstances (for both parties)? ICT for example?

But you can look at it and be critical; but as long as you realise that you are being critical of the whole ethos of the club; the approach which has been really successful in general and recently in particular the 'come here, be successful and move on if the price is right' ethos has worked. If you want to ditch it what do you want to replace it with?

Listen to me redandwhite1874, I'm not on here to trade insults with other posters, but you seem hell-bent on twisting other peoples' comments to to suit your point of view.
You can assume whatever you want, but the dictionary's definition of "cashing in" is to use an opportunity to make a profit or gain an advantage. When did I ever say that the whole ethos of the club is in question.

Anyway, the ethos of the club is about youth development (doesn't apply to 22) and improvement of the player/staff. Does that mean just because an offer came in, we have to sell? If that was the case Ziggy would have been off-loaded to Greece in the summer or Poland a few weeks ago. Everything black or white with you.

I'm perfectly entitled to criticise when I don't agree with things. It's called a democracy. That doesn't mean you throw out the baby with the bathwater.

To answer your question (which you never manage to do), what I'm talking about is we didn't have to sell 22 at this point in time. We had no need financially or team wise to force our hand on that transaction. My opinion (and that's all it is), is the club acted more than hastily to get rid of our top player. We could have waited it out, maybe until the summer. Perhaps his market value would have less than £1m, who knows, but surely Accies are about more than just getting money in. Maybe a delay on selling 22 would have helped your beloved Canning in his present predicament.

Maybe rather than twisting people's word, accusing them of contradiction or being downright patronising, you could answer a question now and again, rather avoiding it by posing a counter question. Maybe you could take a second to think about what people are saying, rather than trying to be smart and putting words in people's mouths. Get off your high horse.

If you have some inside information of how things are happening at the club, share them. Otherwise you're speaking out of speculation, just the same as the rest of us.

All opinions count.

[glenthedog]

It's important that we all acknowledge that this is an open forum, and that people are more than entitled to have their say. All replies should, in turn, be tolerant of others views and be made with fairness and empathy.

For my own tuppence worth, I support the clubs development ethos fully. However, I also believe that young players who are coming through the ranks need guidance from more experienced players, and we lost that when #22 and Alex left. I think the club should have brought in an experienced midfielder to replace the guidance that was lost, as our current midfield is both young and still relatively inexperienced. Young players lose confidence quickly, and having some experience in the middle of the park is required to help maintain a successful development model.

I think it's also accurate to say that some of the finance we pull in helps compensate the club from the lack of income caused by low gates. Clubs like ICT, both Saints and Motherwell have average gates that are double what we have.

Martin Canning isn't immune from criticism, but he deserves until the summer to make an impact. If it's not happening by that point, then the club has to take responsibility for the decision they made to appoint him, and in turn make amends.

[Accies4ever]

It's important that we all acknowledge that this is an open forum, and that people are more than entitled to have their say. All replies should, in turn, be tolerant of others views and be made with fairness and empathy.

For my own tuppence worth, I support the clubs development ethos fully. However, I also believe that young players who are coming through the ranks need guidance from more experienced players, and we lost that when #22 and Alex left. I think the club should have brought in an experienced midfielder to replace the guidance that was lost, as our current midfield is both young and still relatively inexperienced. Young players lose confidence quickly, and having some experience in the middle of the park is required to help maintain a successful development model.

I think it's also accurate to say that some of the finance we pull in helps compensate the club from the lack of income caused by low gates. Clubs like ICT, both Saints and Motherwell have average gates that are double what we have.

Martin Canning isn't immune from criticism, but he deserves until the summer to make an impact. If it's not happening by that point, then the club has to take responsibility for the decision they made to appoint him, and in turn make amends.

100% agree.

[Accies4ever]

Of course if an offer comes in for a player, the club consider it.
But it can't just be about take the money and run.
It has to be weighed against what's best for the team and the club (not always the same thing by the way), not just that individual player.
If it's just the player, then Ziggy would have gone.
More money for him, etc.

What marks out Accies from many clubs of similar or larger size, is the "big picture" we take towards our club. We nurture players, of all ages, to be the best that they can and strive to be a complete unit.

I think the clubs ethos is fantastic and I do buy into it, but if we are aspiring not to be a yo-yo club, sometimes the best approach is not to take the tempting offer, to think of that player's best interest and of course the team's interest.

But, as I've said, if they were wanting to cash in on 22's undoubted talent, what was plan B?
I can't believe that the club was caught so un-awares of the pending offer for 22, that they couldn't have had some alternative plan in place.
If that plan was Sumsky or whoever, why have they hardly featured.

My opinion, and I'm getting a bit fed up having to justify my own opinion, was that the club dropped the ball (so to speak) this window period.
That's what I'm talking about with not every decision the board makes is correct.
That doesn't mean I'm in full revolt against everything the club stands for and we should just pack it in and go home.
Some people just take things to extreme.

Say the club have made a balls up of things this time, it's not the end of the world.
We're still in the SPL.
We sort it in the close season, hopefully.

[Thethirdproclaimer]

I think it's also accurate to say that some of the finance we pull in helps compensate the club from the lack of income caused by low gates. Clubs like ICT, both Saints and Motherwell have average gates that are double what we have.

They're odd teams to select as a comparison with our current state of financial good health. Motherwell were in administration not so long ago, and neither St Mirren nor Inverness are exactly big buyers or sellers, our lack of fan income is surely made up for by our success in the sales department. We've sold a number of players now for healthy profit, and are likely to benefit from future 'sell on' clauses. I think all a few of us are saying is that with a bit of decent scouting some sound financial outlay could have gone on the two or three experienced players who could have steadied the ship and greatly helped out young players in the coming months.

I think with all these 'discussions' going on we're in danger of straying from the original subject. I'll take my leave of the conversation, but it's been fun.

[Accies4ever]

Yes, everyone back on the subject please.

Canning as manager...Success or not?

[Yummy Fur]

Canning as manager...Success or not?

Of course the answer to the question is that it's still too early to judge. Any new manager would struggle against the background of replacing a truly exceptional manager and doing it with the loss of your 2 top scorers, however for me Canning's job was made even harder with the decision to keep on Frankie McAvoy for a month making it almost impossible for him to stamp his authority on the team from the start. I realise that 7 games without a win is a striking headline but I truly believe that the new management team can only start being judged from the Dundee game at Dens onward - 3 games, 2 draws which could easily have been wins and 1 complete shambles. Martin Canning's job immediate target must be to avoid a hammering on Sunday and then take enough points from the next 3 games to secure a top 6. To do so, formations and team selections are secondary the big challenge is to instill some confidence in a team devoid of it.

[Accies4ever]

Canning as manager...Success or not?

Of course the answer to the question is that it's still too early to judge. Any new manager would struggle against the background of replacing a truly exceptional manager and doing it with the loss of your 2 top scorers, however for me Canning's job was made even harder with the decision to keep on Frankie McAvoy for a month making it almost impossible for him to stamp his authority on the team from the start. I realise that 7 games without a win is a striking headline but I truly believe that the new management team can only start being judged from the Dundee game at Dens onward - 3 games, 2 draws which could easily have been wins and 1 complete shambles. Martin Canning's job immediate target must be to avoid a hammering on Sunday and then take enough points from the next 3 games to secure a top 6. To do so, formations and team selections are secondary the big challenge is to instill some confidence in a team devoid of it.

Fully accept what you say, but what would your opinion be if we try all of that and still don't get top 6.
Would it be, try harder Canning and take us into next season or what?