Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

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Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Willie Wastle » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:07 pm

1. He's meeting his annual target of keeping us up. Four years in a row, and counting. On the evidence so far, we're on course to stay up for a sixth consecutive season in the top flight - something we haven't done for 80 years. Too many people must take this for granted now, because they're very quick to shrug it off, but our history shows it's not an easy accomplishment. He could be doing better, as almost any manager at any club could, so let's consider that after the second point.

2. There is no credible alternative. Anyone who thinks we're going to make an appointment like say, Steve Clarke, Neil McCann, Kenny Miller or any foreign coach, hasn't been paying attention to how this club operates. The internal candidates are Imrie, Beuzelin, Scotland, and perhaps now (at a stretch) Kilgallon - anyone confident any of them would do better? And at the moment there aren't many obvious external candidates: Alex Neil could probably do better with this squad, but he isn't available, and even if he was I doubt we could afford him; and who would welcome the return of Billy Reid? We've just overhauled the squad, bringing in (by my count) 14 new signings and 2 loans - that leaves little scope for new acquisitions, and what prospective new manager would accept that?

3. So now is not the right time. However, every manager is on borrowed time. Even if, like the Accies board, you believe in giving managers a fair crack of the whip, and maintaining continuity, there comes a time when you need to part company. That time is nothing to do with win ratios, and everything to do with the criterion of staying up, while continuing to develop talent and move some on at a profit. So how do we take that step forward? If we could improve our win ratio just a bit, we'd be rising to the next level - just 5 or 6 more wins would put us in contention for top six. If we can identify a manager who could deliver that, without compromising the way the club works, we should appoint him - but no earlier than the end of this season.

Finally, I've posted this in good faith, as an Accies fan who wants the best for the club. I recognise some will disagree, and I'm happy to debate with anyone who can be respectful to my point of view, and equally respectful to the subject of this, Martin Canning.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby smc4761 » Tue Nov 13, 2018 8:30 pm

I do want Canning out he is taking the club backwards. Poor football, crowds falling, not a good combination

I do take your point about keeping us up

Your last point says we could do with 5 or 6 more wins. WE have only had that in past 30 games since start of year so I have no idea where these wins will come from. The only teams we have beaten since January 18 are Motherwell x2 and teams that have either been relegated from this division or who have just come up

I would love us to win more games but with Canning in charge, cant see this happening

Is Canning the better option than the internal candidates, that is very debatable. Imrie was challenging fans to a square go at weekend was he not. Hardly an inspiring choice for manager ( though he was getting dogs abuse)
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Willie Wastle » Tue Nov 13, 2018 9:45 pm

Thanks for the civil response, smc4751.

The reason I chose the figure of 5 or 6 more wins is not just because it's what we would need to lift us to about 6th place, but because it would represent a significant improvement on where we've been for the last couple of seasons. Any less of an improvement, and you have to question whether it would be worth the cost and disruption of changing manager - if it just meant 2 or 3 more wins and finishing 8th or 9th, how long before the calls for the manager who achieved that to be sacked too?

As to where those wins come from, good question. I don't think St Johnstone are a much better team than us, but Tommy Wright's unarguably got the measure of Martin Canning. Someone who could tactically outfox him could add at least a couple of wins to our season's tally. We should be doing better against Motherwell than we have in recent seasons. And I also reckon we should be winning more games against top six teams - not many, but how many was it last season? I can only think of the win at Ibrox. Just one or two more would be great.

When we change manager, I think it should be with the aim of lifting us to challenge for top six - that's the next level. Although I support Martin Canning remaining in post for now, I have my doubts he can take us there.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Bomber Harris » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:05 pm

There was no credible alternative when Billy Reid was in charge. We promoted from within and appointed Alex Neil and Frankie McAvoy untill end of that season then rest was history. Who's to say Jason Scotland & George Cairns are not ready as we don't but then again they could very be. Martin Canning from day one has failed and is still failing, yes we've stayed up due to failures of other clubs but if your happy with 8-1 defeats, deafets to Annan twice, Morton, getting pumped on a regular basis this season ffs 10 games in we have a -19 goal difference. Defend Martin Canning all day as I honestly do believe you are the last of a loyal bunch Canning fans. He is finished, he's lost the fans, he's lost the dressing room and has no control of discipline on the pitch. I've said it once and I'll say it again CANNING OUT!!!
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Swift Frank » Tue Nov 13, 2018 11:44 pm

Given a choice of Martin Canning or Freddie 'Parrot Face' Davies as Head Coach I know who I'd opt for.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Bluesy » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:00 am

I would be happy with Martin keeping a job at Douglas Park but not as the manager. I'm afraid I have now come to the view that the squad of players and the potential contenders coming from the under 19s will not flourish with him in control. He's a good servant who clearly tries hard and has indeed kept us up (just) for a few seasons. I honestly think that we could make a much better fist of it with perhaps Dougie in the hot seat (as long as he doesn't play). No matter what I would promote from within rather than parachute in a journeyman manager.
Saturday pushed me over the line in wanting a new manager however, if Canning did not see it as a humiliation, a reorganisation would do for me.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby PrideOfLanarkshire » Wed Nov 14, 2018 9:24 am

Willie Wastle wrote:1. He's meeting his annual target of keeping us up. Four years in a row, and counting. On the evidence so far, we're on course to stay up for a sixth consecutive season in the top flight - something we haven't done for 80 years. Too many people must take this for granted now, because they're very quick to shrug it off, but our history shows it's not an easy accomplishment. He could be doing better, as almost any manager at any club could, so let's consider that after the second point.

2. There is no credible alternative. Anyone who thinks we're going to make an appointment like say, Steve Clarke, Neil McCann, Kenny Miller or any foreign coach, hasn't been paying attention to how this club operates. The internal candidates are Imrie, Beuzelin, Scotland, and perhaps now (at a stretch) Kilgallon - anyone confident any of them would do better? And at the moment there aren't many obvious external candidates: Alex Neil could probably do better with this squad, but he isn't available, and even if he was I doubt we could afford him; and who would welcome the return of Billy Reid? We've just overhauled the squad, bringing in (by my count) 14 new signings and 2 loans - that leaves little scope for new acquisitions, and what prospective new manager would accept that?

3. So now is not the right time. However, every manager is on borrowed time. Even if, like the Accies board, you believe in giving managers a fair crack of the whip, and maintaining continuity, there comes a time when you need to part company. That time is nothing to do with win ratios, and everything to do with the criterion of staying up, while continuing to develop talent and move some on at a profit. So how do we take that step forward? If we could improve our win ratio just a bit, we'd be rising to the next level - just 5 or 6 more wins would put us in contention for top six. If we can identify a manager who could deliver that, without compromising the way the club works, we should appoint him - but no earlier than the end of this season.

Finally, I've posted this in good faith, as an Accies fan who wants the best for the club. I recognise some will disagree, and I'm happy to debate with anyone who can be respectful to my point of view, and equally respectful to the subject of this, Martin Canning.



1. We have been VERY lucky to stay up, last season in particular with our winless run in 2018. I do give Canning credit for some of our wins (2-1 against Thistle), unfortunately though we are going backwards.
2. When Alex Neil left we received over 60 APPLICANTS even know the job wasn't advertised
3. Earlier is better than later, give the new manager time to get to know the squad.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Bomber Harris » Wed Nov 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Also forgot to add that Martin has finished with a worse points total from previous seasons in charge plus we've went from 7th ( partly down to Neil )10th, 11th and back to 10 just about. He has taken us backward from day one in charge. Dress it up what ever way you want he's a failure yes a nice guy and club legend but as a manager a complete and utter failure
CANNING OUT
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Tumbleweed.. » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:08 pm

Willie Wastle wrote:1. He's meeting his annual target of keeping us up. Four years in a row, and counting. On the evidence so far, we're on course to stay up for a sixth consecutive season.

2. There is no credible alternative. Anyone who thinks we're going to make an appointment like say, Steve Clarke, Neil McCann, Kenny Miller or any foreign coach, hasn't been paying attention to how this club operates. The internal candidates are Imrie, Beuzelin, Scotland, and perhaps now (at a stretch) Kilgallon - anyone confident any of them would do better?

3. So now is not the right time. However, every manager is on borrowed time. Even if, like the Accies board, you believe in giving managers a fair crack of the whip, and maintaining continuity, there comes a time when you need to part company. That time is nothing to do with win ratios, and everything to do with the criterion of staying up, while continuing to develop talent and move some on at a profit. So how do we take that step forward? If we could improve our win ratio just a bit, we'd be rising to the next level - just 5 or 6 more wins would put us in contention for top six. If we can identify a manager who could deliver that, without compromising the way the club works, we should appoint him - but no earlier than the end of this season.


Ok, we're on course to stay up for a sixth consecutive season. We lose 2 games more than Dundee and St Mirren and we're bottom. Both of these clubs have had absolute nightmare starts to the season and if they improve just a wee bit and we stay as we are, then that rosy picture changes. It again seems to point to us looking to be the 2nd or 3rd worst team, not the 10th or 11th best team. And if neither of those teams improve and we finish above them, we will have stayed up because 1 or 2 clubs have failed to live up to their potential. I'm sure that has been called a lazy argument in the past, but it seems pretty clear. If we can use if to be positive, we can also use if to be realistic.

The no credible alternative argument is spurious. We keep playing rubbish under a manager who has had a number of seasons to improve and hasn't because there isn't anyone else who could do better? How do you know? What is that based on? Any change of manager is a gamble for any club, but it seems clear that the team is struggling and getting worse, with the past few games compounding this feeling for me - discipline lacking, effort lacking, tactics lacking, players repeatedly coming over at the end of games apologising, the manager repeatedly apologising to the fans in the media for his teams failures - it seems to be coming apart at the seams. If Canning is the best man we have to sort all this out and continues to approach the job the way he has for the last few seasons, then the evidence of decline will just become more and more obvious and the harder it will be to arrest the negativity about the team and manager evidenced on this and other forums.

Not being the right time for a change also confuses me. Do we allow him time to get worse because he's a nice guy and he's been here a while and who could do better and we're not bottom and we're Accies and wait til the season finishes and if your Auntie had testicles she'd be your Uncle? If the above scenario happens and we are bottom at Christmas, why would be give him til the end of the season to get better when he absolutely hasn't since he was given the job?

By suggesting just 5 or 6 more wins would make us challenge for the top 6, it seems more evidence of thinking small - why don't we think big and pray for just 10 or 12 more wins and go for the title? The point is the same, its just the parameters that are different.

If seems to be the operative word in the above analysis - but if we could improve our win ratio just a bit we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If Canning had evidenced the ability to improve our win ratio just a bit in the seasons he has been in charge then people would sit back and allow him to get on and work his magic. He hasn't, so they won't. I don't want Canning out because he isn't a good guy, Im sure he is, but he is not a football manager that I am comfortable will get any better than he has up to now. If he improves, people like me who want him out will fade away. But he hasn't done so yet and my opinion is that he never will. I base that on the evidence of what we have seen since the start of his managerial career, rather than wishing it was different.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Accies Bill » Wed Nov 14, 2018 1:45 pm

No wanting to have a go at Martin, but i am worried this season as the next games are huge, our home ones are Celtic and Hibs and I have to say, not expecting much fron them, but sandwiched between them is two massive away games, St Mirren on the 1st Dec followed by Dundee on the 5th. Lose them and we are in serious trouble and there goes that gap. Past few seasons as well we never kick a ball post Xmas, those teams cant get anyworse I think we can going by past records, hence worried.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby PrideOfLanarkshire » Wed Nov 14, 2018 2:21 pm

Tumbleweed.. wrote:
Willie Wastle wrote:1. He's meeting his annual target of keeping us up. Four years in a row, and counting. On the evidence so far, we're on course to stay up for a sixth consecutive season.

2. There is no credible alternative. Anyone who thinks we're going to make an appointment like say, Steve Clarke, Neil McCann, Kenny Miller or any foreign coach, hasn't been paying attention to how this club operates. The internal candidates are Imrie, Beuzelin, Scotland, and perhaps now (at a stretch) Kilgallon - anyone confident any of them would do better?

3. So now is not the right time. However, every manager is on borrowed time. Even if, like the Accies board, you believe in giving managers a fair crack of the whip, and maintaining continuity, there comes a time when you need to part company. That time is nothing to do with win ratios, and everything to do with the criterion of staying up, while continuing to develop talent and move some on at a profit. So how do we take that step forward? If we could improve our win ratio just a bit, we'd be rising to the next level - just 5 or 6 more wins would put us in contention for top six. If we can identify a manager who could deliver that, without compromising the way the club works, we should appoint him - but no earlier than the end of this season.


Ok, we're on course to stay up for a sixth consecutive season. We lose 2 games more than Dundee and St Mirren and we're bottom. Both of these clubs have had absolute nightmare starts to the season and if they improve just a wee bit and we stay as we are, then that rosy picture changes. It again seems to point to us looking to be the 2nd or 3rd worst team, not the 10th or 11th best team. And if neither of those teams improve and we finish above them, we will have stayed up because 1 or 2 clubs have failed to live up to their potential. I'm sure that has been called a lazy argument in the past, but it seems pretty clear. If we can use if to be positive, we can also use if to be realistic.

The no credible alternative argument is spurious. We keep playing rubbish under a manager who has had a number of seasons to improve and hasn't because there isn't anyone else who could do better? How do you know? What is that based on? Any change of manager is a gamble for any club, but it seems clear that the team is struggling and getting worse, with the past few games compounding this feeling for me - discipline lacking, effort lacking, tactics lacking, players repeatedly coming over at the end of games apologising, the manager repeatedly apologising to the fans in the media for his teams failures - it seems to be coming apart at the seams. If Canning is the best man we have to sort all this out and continues to approach the job the way he has for the last few seasons, then the evidence of decline will just become more and more obvious and the harder it will be to arrest the negativity about the team and manager evidenced on this and other forums.

Not being the right time for a change also confuses me. Do we allow him time to get worse because he's a nice guy and he's been here a while and who could do better and we're not bottom and we're Accies and wait til the season finishes and if your Auntie had testicles she'd be your Uncle? If the above scenario happens and we are bottom at Christmas, why would be give him til the end of the season to get better when he absolutely hasn't since he was given the job?

By suggesting just 5 or 6 more wins would make us challenge for the top 6, it seems more evidence of thinking small - why don't we think big and pray for just 10 or 12 more wins and go for the title? The point is the same, its just the parameters that are different.

If seems to be the operative word in the above analysis - but if we could improve our win ratio just a bit we wouldn't even be having this discussion. If Canning had evidenced the ability to improve our win ratio just a bit in the seasons he has been in charge then people would sit back and allow him to get on and work his magic. He hasn't, so they won't. I don't want Canning out because he isn't a good guy, Im sure he is, but he is not a football manager that I am comfortable will get any better than he has up to now. If he improves, people like me who want him out will fade away. But he hasn't done so yet and my opinion is that he never will. I base that on the evidence of what we have seen since the start of his managerial career, rather than wishing it was different.



Fantastic post.

Your contribution to this forum and realism is a breath of fresh air, posts from the likes of Swift Frank just turn 'canning out' into a joke and not a real problem.

This post can be took seriously with valid points.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Stodmeister » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:06 pm

We play Celtic next week , one which we're not expected to win and one which we the manager can't be judged on. After that we have 2 massive games against 2 teams we are expected to beat and the manager can be judged on , if we lose to St.Mirren and Dundee there should be no debate Martin should go however if we manage to get a couple of results then I guess his job will be safe for the foreseeable future which to me would not be a good thing , NOW is the time to change.

In his tenure Martin has not advanced the team in any way , his team selections at times are baffling as are some of his tactics. Our fans are dwindling away , when we won at Fir Park earlier in the season we took 390 fans , it's the Lanarkshire derby why do fans not want to go??!!

Of course fans want to see wins but they also want to see organisation , skill and hard work also want to see players that are consistently good to merit first team selection , are we getting that? , we are simply carrying passengers at time and the motivation from the sidelines is either not there or simply being ignored. Add to this our player discipline which is absolutely ridiculous and what you have is a SHAMBLES.

In all honesty when was the last time our fans looked forward to a game?
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Willie Wastle » Wed Nov 14, 2018 3:49 pm

The no credible alternative argument is far from spurious. Dundee thought Neil McCann was a bad manager, but so far Jim McIntyre is doing worse. Ross County changed manager twice last season and still went down. We could sack Martin and go from "luckily" staying up every season, to appointing Dougie and slumping to bottom, then struggling in the Championship next year. The only way is not just up.

I suspect our Board, who are very ambitious, made allowance for Martin being appointed before he was ready, but would have wanted him to kick on a bit by now. I think they'll be disappointed, after the investment of all the summer signings, that he hasn't done better so far this season. But I also think they'll be in no rush to risk appointing someone who's less ready now. I reckon they'll be looking around for a manager who can make us more competitive in the top flight, like Alex Neil did, and like Steve Clarke has at Kilmarnock. But that will need to be someone who accepts the structure at Accies, and is willing to work collaboratively with the Board and the other backroom staff. Not someone who wants total control. And they'll have to work within our budget.

That seems to me like the kind of appointment to make at the end of the season (if a likely candidate can be found at all). Or earlier if we already look like we're going down (which right now we don't). It also gives Martin a bit more time this season to climb away from the relegation zone. I agree that the away games at St Mirren and Dundee are crucial, but even more so for our opponents. If we win them, we bury both opponents. If we lose, it's crisis time. But draws are good enough for us, not for the teams who are trying to play catch up.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Willie Wastle » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:34 pm

Winning games is important in football (yeah, I know - duh!). Not just to succeed in competitions, but as this debate shows, to give fans something to get excited about. We all want to win more games. The coaches and players are doing their best to win more games - from what I understand of the club's pay structure, win bonuses make a huge difference to players' earnings.

But the margins between winning and losing at our level are wafer-thin. We've stayed up very narrowly for the past three seasons, and losing just a couple more games would have put us down. The other side of that is we are only five more wins away from 6th/7th. A wee shift in either direction could make a hell of a difference.

However the most expensive, disruptive and risky way to engineer that shift is by changing manager.

I get that everyone is frustrated by our win rate. I'm as disappointed as anyone when we lose. I also get that the more games you go to, and the more poor performances and defeats you see, the more frustrated and angry you get. If you're a regular attender at away games it must be especially hard. But there's a leap of logic between acknowledging our win ratio is poor to concluding that a new manager would improve it. Suppose we brought in a new manager who could eke out another two wins per season - how long before we're equally frustrated by just one or two fewer defeats, and calling for the new manager's head?

We've only had 4 managers in the 16 years of the MacDonald era: Allan Maitland was replaced because he wouldn't go full-time; Billy Reid was the longest serving manager in Scotland before everyone agreed he could do no more; Alex Neil went on to greater things; now Martin Canning is getting every chance. The Board isn't going to chop and change manager without a compelling reason - they'll first try every other strategy available to them. That's the prudent course.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Swift Frank » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:35 pm

The only reason that I can see for keeping Martin is who else could pull off wearing that jumper better than him?
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Willie Wastle » Wed Nov 14, 2018 4:36 pm

Swift Frank wrote:The only reason that I can see for keeping Martin is who else could pull off wearing that jumper better than him?

Brendan Rogers? Steven Gerrard?

I don't know if you've noticed, but v-neck jumpers are very common!
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby TerracingTomas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:06 pm

Fantastic post.

Your contribution to this forum and realism is a breath of fresh air, posts from the likes of Swift Frank just turn 'canning out' into a joke and not a real problem.


Subtle difference POL, one poster is just a troll and the other a committed fan.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby TerracingTomas » Wed Nov 14, 2018 5:29 pm

Much as I would like to see a change of manager I pity much guarantee you that Martin will still be sitting there come January so I’m afraid I find it difficult to get exercised about His future. Ronnie and Les have ridden out the storm of fan discontent before and all the signs are they will do so again. The impact of the St Mirren/Dundee games will be interesting. Win them and as Stodmiester says we will limp on under Martins’ management to the January window. The directors will no doubt splash a bit of cash on a few additions. But if previous seasons are to go by we then will have a really bad run. That might be hard to identify given current form. Lose those 2 games and go bottom by January who knows but I’m not holding my breathe for festive season soap drama where we all turn up on Boxing Day at Tynecastle expecting a dramatic sacking. (P s I don’t actually expect to be at Tynecastle on Boxing Day.)
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Swift Frank » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:20 pm

Ah,Brendan and Stevie G !
Now there's a pair well entitled to wear Manager's clobber.
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Re: Why we should keep Martin Canning as manager

Postby Swift Frank » Wed Nov 14, 2018 6:22 pm

Willie Wastle wrote:
Swift Frank wrote:The only reason that I can see for keeping Martin is who else could pull off wearing that jumper better than him?

Brendan Rogers? Steven Gerrard?

I don't know if you've noticed, but v-neck jumpers are very common!


Rogers and Gerard are well entitled to wear Manager's clobber.
Last edited by Swift Frank on Wed Nov 14, 2018 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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