Top flight or more wins?

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Top flight or more wins?

10th or better in the Premier every season, however few games we win
15
79%
Stuck in the Championship or lower, but with a much higher win rate
4
21%
 
Total votes : 19

Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 1:08 pm

Is this the Golden Age for supporting Accies? Top flight for 5 seasons and counting (on course for a 6th season). Playing big teams week-in-week-out. But losing most games, and getting the occasional humping.

Or would we be better to find our level, drop down a division or two, be stuck there hardly ever winning promotion, but winning far more games, and giving out the occasional humping?

What's your preference?
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby PrideOfLanarkshire » Mon Nov 12, 2018 2:57 pm

It's happened, Willie Wastle has finally snapped...

FYI my preference would be 10th or better, with a team which is playing for the manager and can be motivated by him.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:04 pm

PrideOfLanarkshire wrote:It's happened, Willie Wastle has finally snapped...

FYI my preference would be 10th or better, with a team which is playing for the manager and can be motivated by him.

Another personal dig. :roll:

After Saturday's debacle, someone told me he enjoyed our last season in the third tier more than this. I wondered how many other Accies fans share his view, hence the poll.

FYI, I think our players are playing for Martin Canning. As for motivation, that's down to the players themselves.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby PrideOfLanarkshire » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:13 pm

Willie Wastle wrote:
PrideOfLanarkshire wrote:
FYI, I think our players are playing for Martin Canning. As for motivation, that's down to the players themselves.


What are you basing that on?

The motivation is down to the players themselves are you kidding on? I think you need to look up the job roll of a football manager if you believe that.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:30 pm

PrideOfLanarkshire wrote:
Willie Wastle wrote:
PrideOfLanarkshire wrote:
FYI, I think our players are playing for Martin Canning. As for motivation, that's down to the players themselves.


What are you basing that on?

The motivation is down to the players themselves are you kidding on? I think you need to look up the job roll of a football manager if you believe that.

There's a quote from an old American coach. I can't remember which one - Vince Lombardi? Yogi Berra? Someone like that. But the point is this: he said the first thing he did when going into a dressing room was find out which players needed motivating - then get rid of the b******s (I paraphrase).

Managers can offer leadership and inspiration, they can make speeches, they can coach. Whatever. But a professional football player has to want to do well. If they can't motivate themselves, nobody else can. Motivation comes from within.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Segullo » Mon Nov 12, 2018 3:37 pm

PrideOfLanarkshire wrote:
Willie Wastle wrote:
PrideOfLanarkshire wrote:
FYI, I personaly use anti snoring devices and think our players are playing for Martin Canning. As for motivation, that's down to the players themselves.


What are you basing that on?

The motivation is down to the players themselves are you kidding on? I think you need to look up the job roll of a football manager if you believe that.


I'm a believer that the players have to find the motivation on their own, for the most part. No one can motivate anybody if they're unmotivated themselves.
Last edited by Segullo on Wed Dec 14, 2022 3:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby smc4761 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:31 pm

What are you basing that on?

The motivation is down to the players themselves are you kidding on? I think you need to look up the job roll of a football manager if you believe that.[/quote]
There's a quote from an old American coach. I can't remember which one - Vince Lombardi? Yogi Berra? Someone like that. But the point is this: he said the first thing he did when going into a dressing room was find out which players needed motivating - then get rid of the b******s (I paraphrase).

Managers can offer leadership and inspiration, they can make speeches, they can coach. Whatever. But a professional football player has to want to do well. If they can't motivate themselves, nobody else can. Motivation comes from within.[/quote]

From listening to Martin on TV and radio and going by comments of pundits and fans alike, he is sadly lacking in the leadership quality. A disgraceful win percentage, maybe suggests that he is not motivating the players and there has been a large turnaround in players. As for his coaching ability I am guessing that would include tactics and organisation, something that has been evident for months/years is sadly lacking
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Im_Rodger98 » Mon Nov 12, 2018 5:47 pm

If we are ambitious for our club (which I am) you must vote Premiership.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Bomber Harris » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:24 pm

Canning out and stay in the premiership for me
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Tumbleweed.. » Mon Nov 12, 2018 6:43 pm

I genuinely despair.

The poll is based on binary choices, one or the other. Why? Why should we not expect to win more matches in the top Division? Why should we accept the current mindset of the club where we just need to be the 2nd or 3rd worst team every season for it to be a success? Why should we only be judged on matches against the other poor teams in the league?

It is short-term, negative and so, so dispiriting that many fans have decided they don't want to watch what is being served up. Surely its not too difficult for someone to explain why in this golden age we are losing fans?

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO BANG ON ABOUT THE CLUB DOING GREAT WHILE WE ARE LOSING MORE AND MORE FANS.

Please make me understand how this can be seen as acceptable?
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:07 pm

I've explained further up the thread why these choices in the poll.

Everyone wants us to win more games, so that's a pointless option.

If we could win just a handful more games per season, we'd be challenging for top six. A tall order, but not impossible, and logically the next step forward. But I think a lot to expect in this season, which is essentially about rebuilding.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Tumbleweed.. » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:28 pm

Aye, right you are. Your response shows quite clearly you are unable to think or respond logically when there may not just be 2 options.
Tap away, but don't think you speak for me as an Accies fan when you try to blind people with more twaddle that Accies are brilliant, you are right and anyone who disagrees is less important a fan than you.

I genuinely wonder what your motivation for disbelieving the evidence of your own eyes is WW.

And you have STILL not answered my question and STILL failed to fully defend Martin Canning. But, as you cannot do logically either, I am not surprised.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:54 pm

Why the hostility, Tumbleweed?

Can you not simply accept that other Accies fans have different opinions to yours?

I don't claim to "speak for" you, or any other Accies fans. And I haven't "failed" to do anything - I'm not working to your agenda or timetable.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Tumbleweed.. » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:09 pm

Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Another post where, despite repeated requests from me and repeated assertions from you that you would ANSWER THE QUESTION, I note once again you have FAILED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. If you can't, just say so.

Questions and answers are essential to debate and I am willing to be convinced that I am missing whatever you are seeing and that I should revise my opinion on Canning, however as I have already said, you just can't provide the evidence and insist on saying things which defy belief, as they are so far from what I see every week.
You are clearly unable or unwilling to answer the fundamental question I have asked you specifically about on a number of occasions and while I appreciate individual timetables are a matter for individuals, it just leads me to believe you have decided not to do so, while continually telling everyone who is fed up with Canning that we are wrong and everything is wonderful.

I wont ask again, your position is already all too clear.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Yer Sisters Yer Maw » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:43 pm

Who voted the Championship? Absolute madness! :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:53 pm

Yer Sisters Yer Maw wrote:Who voted the Championship? Absolute madness! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Championship "or lower"!

Incredibly, there are some Accies fans who would prefer this, in order to see us winning more games.

I suspect there would be more, judging by the widespread anger at the number of defeats we have in the Premier, were it not for the poll highlighting what an extreme position it is.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Willie Wastle » Mon Nov 12, 2018 8:58 pm

Tumbleweed.. wrote:Deflect, deflect, deflect.

Another post where, despite repeated requests from me and repeated assertions from you that you would ANSWER THE QUESTION, I note once again you have FAILED TO ANSWER THE QUESTION. If you can't, just say so.

Questions and answers are essential to debate and I am willing to be convinced that I am missing whatever you are seeing and that I should revise my opinion on Canning, however as I have already said, you just can't provide the evidence and insist on saying things which defy belief, as they are so far from what I see every week.
You are clearly unable or unwilling to answer the fundamental question I have asked you specifically about on a number of occasions and while I appreciate individual timetables are a matter for individuals, it just leads me to believe you have decided not to do so, while continually telling everyone who is fed up with Canning that we are wrong and everything is wonderful.

I wont ask again, your position is already all too clear.

Saying deflect three times doesn't make it true.

I've directly addressed several points you made. And I will address the point you so desperately want me to address, more than any other - in my own time.

You seem incapable of reading what I do write, however. "Everything is wonderful" - who on earth said or thinks that? Certainly not me. A bit of respect and civility goes a long way in debate - is that too much to expect among fellow Accies fans?
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Yummy Fur » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:30 pm

Tumbleweed.. wrote:I genuinely despair.

The poll is based on binary choices, one or the other. Why? Why should we not expect to win more matches in the top Division? Why should we accept the current mindset of the club where we just need to be the 2nd or 3rd worst team every season for it to be a success? Why should we only be judged on matches against the other poor teams in the league?

It is short-term, negative and so, so dispiriting that many fans have decided they don't want to watch what is being served up. Surely its not too difficult for someone to explain why in this golden age we are losing fans?

IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO BANG ON ABOUT THE CLUB DOING GREAT WHILE WE ARE LOSING MORE AND MORE FANS.

Please make me understand how this can be seen as acceptable?



I think you might despair a bit more after this response, another poster with an alternative view from the repeat Ad nauseam Canning out and clownzo stuff.


Why are we losing fans while we are in our most successful period post war? The simple answer is because we are losing games and have been for a few seasons now. It isn't unique to Accies and is an unescapable truth that football fans don't enjoy seeing their team lose. Are we losing games because of Canning or are we losing games because that is what teams with half the budget of other teams in the league do - you can decide on that yourself. I've asked a few times now and like you I haven't had an answer but is there another team in Europe who have staying in their top flight league for such a sustained period while having such a fininancial disadvantage on all the other teams in the league (with the exception of this season)? Achieving this in Scotland is even more remarkable with gate income making up roughly 70% of overall revenue. It's a unique achievement and stunning considering the manager who has done it will never get another job in football (file alongside - the safest job in football).


Would a different manager for the 2nd half of last season (the first half of the season including a 6 game unbeaten run and a first league win at Ibrox in most of our lifetimes has been airbrushed out of history) have done significantly better while selling our best players and having a squad clear out to stave off a insolvency episode. Add in to that that our best defender (Devlin), midfielder (Crawford) didn't kick a ball all season and that our only right back went back home after the window had shut then to escape relegation was remarkable, to bring in £1m quid of transfer fees while doing that was even more remarkable (his management of a half fit / non training Templeton deserves massive credit too).


In saying all that I'm not claiming that he's doing a great job. I've watched us too much this season to claim that, I was at Pittodrie and watched him play no full backs against a team whose only threat comes down the wings. I've seen Canning give the most damning of all verdicts on his transfer dealings by playing Imrie in centre midfield and then bringing on Alex Penny to play the same position while Kelly, Taiwo, Monlouis and Smith couldn't make it on the bench. The strange thing is that the accusation leveled at Canning of selection bingo is the exact opposite of his big problem which is a stubborn refusal to change despite all the evidence. Too loyal to 5 at the back for too long and now too loyal to 4-2-3-1 which is a formation that gives us no width and no protection at either full back position. Too loyal to the senior players who aren't repaying the loyalty and letting him down week in week out. The midfield was weak without MacKinnon so a recall was fair but after that tackle (and a win under Kilgallon) bringing him back at captain was wrong. To recall Imrie after poor performance after poor performance and that crazy sending off against Aberdeen (and a win against Livi without him) was also wrong.


Canning has been a loyal servant and has always acted with dignity and respect despite severe provocation, however I wouldn't be upset any more with a change (although a new manager isn't a silver bullet). To say Canning is doing a great job would be absurd but to disregard what he's achieved in keeping us in the division for 3 years is equally absurd.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Stodmeister » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:47 pm

I understand the reason of this poll and it's a reasonable question to ask.

Maybe the question should be :- are you happy with the way we are playing under the direction of Martin Canning or would you rather there be someone else at the helm?

It's great we are in the Premier league but I personally feel we could do better with someone else managing us.

Martin is a likeable guy and no doubt works hard but some of the team selections baffle me at times as do his use of substitutes , of course appointing another manager would be difficult especially as it would have to be a "yes" man which of course Martin is. It also baffles me what Guillaume Beuzelin's contribution is to the team , does he advise Martin or simply does as he's told.

This season the board have backed Martin and we have signed quite a lot of players , some who appear to be duds unfortunately , but some contribute well. I'm always bemused by the selection of Bingham who for me just hasn't got it , the stats will back that up I'm sure. I often see the comment of "selection bingo" on this forum and to be honest sometimes that phrase hits some of his picks right on the head. Bingham and Bloomfield on Saturday , don't get that selection . The constant selection of Imrie , a great servant to the club , also baffles me can he not see the guys legs are shot , impact sub only.

The discipline of the players is absolutely disgraceful at the club and for me Daz in never a captain , is he now over the points barrier and misses next match?

I've been following Accies a very long time but because I now live in England I don't get to see many matches these day but I go when I can but have to say it's been a long time since I saw an enjoyable game at the Accies , in fact the last time was probably in Alex Neil's tenure.

I saw Martin's first game away at Thistle when we got humped and some players threw their toys out the pram and from what I can see now we have not advanced in any way under his leadership. For a manager to come out and say we're not expected to get anything from some games so it doesn't matter is a disgrace to our ever decreasing band of loyal fans.

I guess we'll be trying and win against St.Mirren , Dundee and Motherwell but the others we'll just take the nil points. Why don't we just play the young guys in those games , at least they may show a bit of fight.
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Re: Top flight or more wins?

Postby Swift Frank » Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:49 pm

Top Flight with Canning Out.
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